Create the Courage to be Fearless

Ken Posner: Barefoot Running, 100 Marathons & 600 Mountains EP 216

• Anita Mattu • Episode 216

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What would it feel like to move through the world with nothing between you and the ground?

In this episode, I’m joined by Ken Posner—runner, writer, and financial analyst—who has completed over 100 marathons and ultramarathons, including nearly 30 barefoot, and climbed more than 600 mountains without shoes.

We explore the reality of barefoot running and hiking—from the sharp pain of gravel to the quiet pleasure of moss—and how moving this way demands focus, balance, and patience. Ken shares how these experiences go far beyond physical challenge, becoming a practice in mindfulness, discipline, and self-awareness.

We also dive into his latest book, Chasing the Grid, where he documents a long-term mountain challenge and his pursuit of something deeper through endurance and time in nature. Along the way, we discuss the connection between movement and spirituality, the influence of transcendentalist thinking, and how stepping away from constant digital noise can restore clarity and presence.

Ken reflects on a pivotal night hike where his ego fell silent, opening up a new perspective on anger, defensiveness, and the way we show up—both outdoors and online. This conversation is ultimately about learning to manage yourself when things get hard, and finding calm in the middle of effort.

If you’re interested in barefoot running, ultramarathons, mindset, or reconnecting with nature in a more intentional way, this episode offers a grounded and thoughtful perspective.

Subscribe for more conversations on performance, mindset, and living with intention—and share this episode with someone who could use a reset.

You can connect with Ken at www.barefootken.com

If you are enjoying my work then you can support me by 'buying me a coffee' at this page  
I look forward to connecting with you Anita Mattu https://linktr.ee/AnitaMattu

When Anger Turns Into Hatred

Ken Posner

I I would like everybody to ask themselves that question. Are there places in my life where I cross the line into anger and hatred and bitterness? And if so, why am I demonizing people on the other side? Can I understand where they're coming from and can I understand why I'm getting so upset here?

Anita Mattu

Today's guest is Kent Posner, a runner, writer, and financial analytics. As a runner, he's completed over 100 marathons, ultra marathons, including nearly 30 barefoot. Meaning no shoes! Oh he's also a barefoot mountain climber with over 600 mountains climbed without shoes. On the way to a lifetime goal of 1,000. His most recent book, Chasing the Grid, an Ultrarunner's Physical and Spiritual Journey in Pursuit of the Ultimate Mountain Challenge chronicles his pursuit of spiritual transcendence through nature and movement. Welcome, Ken.

Ken Posner

Thank you, Anita. Delighted to be here.

Anita Mattu

For me, that just gives me the cringes. You know, barefoot, climbing, running. But oh my gosh. I don't know how you're gonna answer the first question. What is one of the most courageous things you have

Meet Kent Posner And His Quest

Anita Mattu

done?

Ken Posner

Okay, so I'm gonna give you a difficult answer. Or I'm gonna be difficult, Anita. And uh because I don't look back at my life and and really use the word courageous for anything. And I'll explain why in a second. But I'll tell you something I did. Now, this was in shoes, just to be clear. So a number of years ago, I ran through Death Valley in the western uh United States. It's desert. It's called Death Valley because people died there. So I ran 294 miles. That's called the Bad Water Double. The temperature got up to 127 degrees Fahrenheit. Now I know you're in England, so I gotta translate that. That's 53 degrees uh Celsius.

Anita Mattu

Oh wow.

Ken Posner

And I didn't die. Um now was that courageous? It was successful because I set a record for that. But I don't use the

Death Valley And The Power Of Try

Ken Posner

word courage uh for a couple reasons. One, I had done the training, I had a plan, I had a great support team helping me, and I made the effort. But here's why I don't use the word courageous to describe myself. If you let me call myself courageous, the next thing you know, I'm gonna be telling you how smart and good looking I am, and then it's gonna be how I'm morally superior to everybody I disagree with. I think courage is a great word to apply to other people. And so I hesitate to describe myself using any words at all. I'm just into trying to get things done. And we'll leave it at that. And maybe you think that's courageous or maybe you think it's stupid. But that's your call.

Anita Mattu

So let's change that a little. What did that moment teach you about yourself then?

Ken Posner

What it taught me is if I would just make the effort, I could keep moving. Because it got really hard about three days in. Because I basically had no sleep. And um we were starting to get close to the end and there were some I mean, we were coming down a mountain and I saw those dust devils in the, you know, spinning up over the dunes, and I knew that was a problem because that means wind. And it wasn't a tailwind, it was a headwind. It was a ferocious head headwind. It must have been 30 or 40 or 50 miles an hour. My you can see in the video, my shirt is just flapping uh because it's that strong. And and um my my uh team leader said, Ken, I'm I'm so sorry the wind, it's terrible. We were trying to break this record, so every minute mattered. And um my I had a pacer, people running with me, Deanna Colbreth, and she said, Let's just try running. And I couldn't even talk at this point. But I just thought to myself, if if she's gonna try running, I guess I can try, but it's not gonna work. And she started running, just a slow trot, and so I followed her at a slow trot, and it seemed like the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. But I noticed I wasn't, you know, out of breath. My heart wasn't racing, so it was all just difficult mentally, because I'd been going for three days at this point. But I followed her, and then eventually the winds died down and we and we got to the finish. So it was a successful outcome. But that was the lesson. Just try.

Anita Mattu

Oh how what an amazing thing to be able to do as well.

Ken Posner

Oh yeah, that was one of well, you know, you go through life and you do things. And then it's at some point they get harder as you get older, but then you can look back, and it's it's not that I want to look back and spend my time, you know, with memories, but there's like a foundation there. I can and and then I go back to to asking the question, what can I do today that'll make a difference?

Anita Mattu

Absolutely. So you're a financial analyst, runner, and writer. How do these parts of your life influence each other?

Ken Posner

Well, it's um you know, I think of it a little bit as a barbell. Well, I'm that's two ends, right? You mentioned three, but let's go with two ends for a moment. I love my work, and it's I love working with the good people, you know, on my team at the companies I've been privileged to work at. Um, but my work as an analyst is all, and I forget if it's like left brain or right brain, but it's all calculations, right? And it's spreadsheets and it's PowerPoint slides, which is great, but it can't be my whole life. So the other side of the barbell is nature, and nature gives me the full mind-body engagement and the joy and awe that I just wouldn't have if I lived in spreadsheets and PowerPoint um slides for my whole life. Now, the writing is I guess

Balancing Desk Work With Wilderness

Ken Posner

a third element. I don't know how to put that on a on a barbell, but um the writing is very important to me. It's it's how I process what I've done and draw connections and learn. And so those are I guess are the three the three um legs to my stool. How about that?

Anita Mattu

Yeah, that sounds great. Does your running or climbing help solve problems that you can't at the desk? Because it takes you outdoors?

Ken Posner

Well, I think so, yes. Yes. And and you know, there was an American nature writer by the name of Edward Abbey. And I don't know if your English uh listeners would be familiar with him, but he he wrote a great book called Desert Solitaire, and he talked about the wilderness as a refuge. And he has a famous quote if we didn't have wilderness as a refuge, life in the city would drive everybody to drugs, psychoanalysis, and crime. But having said that, to me, refuge is where you retreat to rearm, refit, retrain, and then go back into battle. I'd rather be a little bit more aggressive. I'd like to take the energy of nature and bring it into the life in the city, so to speak, and infuse life in the city with the same vibrancy and intensity and and range of feelings from the pleasure to the pain. That's my goal.

Anita Mattu

Well, my next question is something I cannot possibly do. But running and climbing barefoot is rare, as we all know. What does it feel like physically and mentally? I mean, I I can't imagine and I wouldn't like to experience. I mean, I will go outside on the grass and do some grounding and hug a tree. So I can do simple things like that, but actually running, it just sounds so painful for me.

Ken Posner

And by the way, I never went around barefoot as a kid. Never. So maybe I'm just, you know, making up for it. And by the way, it was never part of some grand plan of mine to become a middle-aged hippie, go around barefoot. Um, but uh there was a famous book that came out in the US called Born to Run. And it's probably the best-selling running book of all time. And the guy talks about barefoot running. And I think what it was so popular because I think that triggers something in people, it's natural, it's primal,

The Reality Of Barefoot Movement

Ken Posner

it's like a metaphor for everything that we're missing when we sit in chairs all day and type on keyboards, right? So so so um, but to answer your question, there's two answers. And what it does is it gives you this full range of feelings. And on the one hand, it can be very painful. So gravel is no fun. Sharp rocks are like I climbed uh a mountain outside of Las Vegas in the desert, and that's real desert. There's no vegetation at all. It's all rocks. And I had a great time climbing at barefoot, but it was really slow. It was like a half a mile an hour, one kilometer an hour. And that's because you have to place each foot carefully, otherwise it hurts. Um, but the flip side is you get this this wild contrast and intensity. So here in the Northeast in New York, we have trails that can be rocky or they can be covered in smooth dirt. And some trails have moss or there's grass, and that's pleasurable. And so you get this contrast which you lose in shoes, and that makes it really addictive, or at least that's what happened to me. It was so much fun that um I lost interest in shoes almost immediately. So a weird outcome, but it gave me that that intensity from nature that I was hungering for. And the funny thing is, it's the simplest thing in the world. You don't need any equipment. And you don't have to go climbing rocky mountains, you can just walk around on the sidewalk, in a park, on a grassy field, or go for a little hike, a short hike in the forest. That's where it starts to become really fun. And and you mentioned grounding, Anita. To me, grounding is a mindset, it's a mental state, and you start to feel more like you're part of the forest instead of just clumping through it in shoes or boots.

Anita Mattu

Because I mean, has there been times where you've cut yourself?

Ken Posner

Well, um you know, first of all, the feet are really good at slowing you down. If they start to feel, you know, put upon, you'll find yourself going very slowly. So they take care of themselves. Um so yeah, I mean, I've gotten little scratches from sticks. You know, I've stepped on a thorn once or twice. So those things for sure happen. But generally what happens is after you've been on rocks, your feet just get tired and they're like, stop, we don't want to do this anymore. And then you reach into your pack and you pull out your shoes.

Anita Mattu

And I think you know, you make it sound so effortless and easy.

Ken Posner

Um I I I just had a fun, I I I just climbed three mountains uh two days ago. And these aren't huge mountains, they're only a thousand feet tall, they're 300 meters. Uh and I've been up bigger mountains, but where I live, there are a lot of small mountains. So it's just hiking, really. But it was so much fun. I mean, we were having a very warm uh spell in in the spring, so it was 60 degrees or even warmer, and the trails were soft dirt, and then there were patches of snow, which is a little cold. And then in some places the streams were running with water, and then there was one place I had to cut off the trail and go straight through the forest, you know, scrambling up uh a steeper section. It's such a wild variety of experiences, and you know, it's slower paced, and it's um it's just so much fun. And part of the reason I'm I can tell people I'm out here talking about it is I can't be the only person that's having this much fun. So I'm trying to share the word so that you know other people out there are encouraged to to maybe give it a try.

Anita Mattu

And have you found other people that should do that?

Ken Posner

Uh actually, yes. Um I've started leading some introductory uh barefoot workshops. Um and uh last fall we took up a group um with uh with both young and old. And the young people they took off their shoes and then they just went scampering ahead. And I was like, hey, wait for me. Um we had an older gentleman who was 73 years old, an experienced hiker, and he came along quite slowly, but he made it all the way three miles up and 2,000 feet up uh to the top of Windham High Peak in the Catskill Mountains, and he said that he had just uh a feeling of remarkable accomplishment. And that's what it does, it grabs you because you're like, hey, I just I just climbed a mountain the way people used to do it back in the old days. And he and this this feeling can just grab you. So I've I'm doing about uh a couple more next month once the once the snow has

Teaching Others To Go Barefoot

Ken Posner

gone for good here. Yeah. So nope, no, I don't know that anybody is well actually I shouldn't say that. So I have this project to do 1,000 mountains barefoot, because I like big projects. But I know of a few other people who've done some barefoot uh mountain climbing, and so you know it's a very small sport, but it's not I'm not the only one.

Anita Mattu

Because the thing is being barefoot must change your experience of a mountain as well.

Ken Posner

Oh absolutely. And and you know, by the way, it's so good for you because in shoes you comp long, right? You thump, you trot, you you you you pound the pavement because you can, because the feet are protected. When you're barefoot, you have to move carefully. And I call it the original uh human mindfulness, because it puts you into a mode that you have to pay attention to every step you take, which is how people used to move. Um, but it's really good for your balance and your agility and your posture. So I, you know, you see people getting, you know, knees and hips replaced, and um they're not necessarily runners or or even hikers, and you ask the question why. Uh, and it could be because Jews make it easy to pound. There could be other causes. Um, some people um associate those kinds of injuries with diet, actually. But it's it's enormously fun and it's good for you. So so I encourage some of your listeners, maybe just one of your listeners, will give it a try.

Anita Mattu

I'll take your word for the fun part. So, what's a moment barefoot that made you feel alive? It must be exhilarating. You know, there must be times where you feel, wow, this is what it's all about.

Ken Posner

Well, I mean, uh uh back in February I climbed uh a mountain. And again, these are small mountains, and you know, sometimes it's not very far to the top from the parking area, but it was covered in snow. So um at first it was hard packed. Now you can walk on top of snow. Now it depends on the conditions, and everybody's different, so I'm not telling anybody what they should do. But since it was a warm day in the upper 30s or maybe even in the 40s, um, so above zero Celsius, I was able to walk on the surface of the snow without any problem. But at the top, there was just a quarter mile through the forest off the trail to the actual summit. And here I was, you know, stepping through two feet of snow. And so there's a clock ticking down because if I spend too much time in deep snow like that, my feet are going to get really cold and then they'll go numb, and there's a risk of serious injury. So I was sort of pushing through this deep snow to get to the summit before I would, you know, put myself in harm's way. I got to the summit, checked my maps, and it was the wrong bump. So I had to go just a little bit farther. And uh and then I made it back and I was fine. Um But there's, you know, as with any outdoors activity, there is a little bit of risk, and with experience you learn what you can handle and what you can't handle. But but that's the intensity. So you ask for a feeling, and the intensity is okay, I'm in snow up to my knees. My feet are going to freeze if I don't get to the summit and then back quickly.

Anita Mattu

And it's all planned. It wasn't spontaneous.

Ken Posner

Well, I didn't know what the conditions were going to be like, but I knew there was the risk of this because I knew there was a short distance off trail to get to the actual summit.

Anita Mattu

You amaze me, Ken. That's all I can say. You really amaze me.

Ken Posner

Thank you, Anita. But there's nothing I'm doing. It one of the fun things about Barefoot, by the way, is when I'm on the trails and people see me, they're very positive. Now, sometimes um people get triggered. And by the way, if I show up in a restaurant or a coffee shop or a supermarket without shoes, sometimes people get mad. Um, rarely, but sometimes. But on the trails, they're mostly very encouraging. And they say things like respect and badass and next level. And I'm always like, no, it's not next level, it's prior level. This is what people used to do. Now, standals and moccasins have been around for a long time. And it doesn't mean everybody had them. And they didn't use them when they didn't have to because they were time consuming to make and took effort to make, uh, and you didn't want to wear them out. Um, but think about our ancestors living through ice ages. Yeah. And now they're gonna have to go out barefoot in the snow in some cases, but they're also hungry. So they're trying to judge, you know, should I just stay in the cave and be hungry? Or should I risk my feet in the snow? Now, here's the here's the thing. They made really good decisions, generally. Otherwise, we might not be here today. So, one of the the cool things about going barefoot, sometimes it it causes me to just be in the mind of connecting with or trying to understand what people used to do and how hard life was. They would have been much better than me at at going barefoot, but their feet would have gotten tired too. And so there's that connection, a thin connection to the past, which I appreciate.

Anita Mattu

Um, definitely. And it is, I mean, like we say when we're trying to get to a place like developing, it's not about going forward, it's always about coming back to who we are. And then that's exactly what you're saying. You're not going forward in the shoes, you're going back to what originally was the process. You know, there were no shoes, it was barefooted. So that's really fascinating in itself. And yeah. I still say it takes a lot of courage and guts to do something like that. You know. Where this day and age, everything is so convenient. Yeah. That's the thing, isn't it? Yes, exactly back. Yeah.

Ken Posner

Uh Anita, I think you put your thumb right on the on the hot button here, so to speak. Going backwards. Like you remember the movie The Matrix? Yes. Right. And that's the that's a great metaphor for the challenge we face in the modern world where we're overwhelmed with information and people trying to get us to believe or buy or vote or whatever their agenda is. The way to get out of the matrix is to go backwards. Because everything in life is pushing us forward. Do more, buy more, right? Drink more coffee, eat more sugar so you're all hyped up. Going backwards is hard, but but it's so important because it puts you in control. And I think part of the challenge for us modern people is we're racing so fast, we're not in control. We're letting other people push us, right? We're letting the world push us. And it's not that I don't want to go backwards to the Paleolithic era

Escaping The Matrix By Slowing Down

Ken Posner

and actually live in a cave and and have to go uh hunting and gathering for food, which would be hard to do in today's world. But it's like a race car, right? Like a race car has an accelerator and a brake. I haven't driven one, but that's what I understand how they operate, just like our cars. And if you're going through the straightaway, yeah, you want to push the accelerator down and go 200 miles an hour or what is that? That's 300 kilometers an hour or whatever it is, right? But if you hit a turn, you don't want to be going that fast. So you need to use the brake and be going into the turn at the right speed. And so I think for us, just trying to live our lives, having an accelerator to go fast, and then a brake, and something like Barefoot helps you learn to go slow. And actually, one of the hardest things about Barefoot, it can be frustrating when you're used to going fast in shoes, and now they're rocks, and you have to tiptoe through them uh at one kilometer an hour, and that can be frustrating, and that's how you learn patience and control.

Anita Mattu

I really can understand that, definitely. You know, really being in the moment, slowing you down. I don't think anything c more, you know. That's exactly it.

Ken Posner

Yeah.

Anita Mattu

Your book, Chasing the Grid, talks about spiritual transcendence through movement. What does that mean in practice?

Ken Posner

When I talk about transcendence, I'm I'm referencing an American tradition. Uh we call it American transcendentalism, and there were a number of authors in the 19th century who were considered the transcendentalists. And so again, your your uh English listeners may or may not be familiar with these authors, but people like Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, Walt Whitman, John Muir, John Burroughs, and they were watching society in the mid-19th century, and they were seeing people moving into towns and villages and cities and working increasingly indoors, increasingly sedentary work, and they were concerned. Uh, Thoreau has a famous uh um saying he he believed that the majority of men lived lives of quiet desperation, and he associated that with being indoors all day and losing your connection

Transcendence Through Nature Practice

Ken Posner

with nature. So the transcendentalist tradition is just the idea of drawing strength, drawing energy, drawing draw joy, intuition, creativity from nature. And so Thoreau said he had to be outdoors for four hours a day, or he would start to acquire a little bit of rust. Those are the words he used. And for myself, I don't I wouldn't put myself quite at Thoreau's level, but I I I try to do something maybe an hour or two hours every day, and a lot more on the weekend. And we all have the different needs, so it might be 15 minutes for you and eat it, it might be three hours for somebody else. But the idea is when you get into nature, it we sort of it does a couple of things. It knocks you out of your comfort box, right? And you need that, you need to be challenged. And it does something else, it creates some stillness and some quiet because we're being screamed at by people 24-7, whether it's advertising or social media or just our family and neighbors and friends and community and everybody else and politicians, right? So it creates that stillness where you can start to hear your own voices and start to perceive things that get, you know, are is just too noisy in the day to day-to-day world to perceive these things. You know, it it's sort of like I was saying with barefoot, there's this range of feelings from the pleasure of moss to the pain of gravel, and you want that full range of feelings. And so some dose of nature is going to help you get back on track, whereas if you spend your whole life in climate-controlled office environment in front of a screen, you're not getting that intensity. Right?

Anita Mattu

Have you ever had a moment in nature that genuinely changed how you see the world?

Ken Posner

Yes, yes, for sure. And I wouldn't say that it's every time I go outdoors for a walk, but on occasions, and in in the in my book, uh Chasing the Grid, I talk about a big peak bagging project or mountain climbing project that I undertook at a pivotal point in my life. And just for some context, prior to this project, I had been a runner, but I was getting to the point where I was starting to struggle with injuries. And I this was not barefoot running, this was at this point all running in shoes. And I had had a you know a really exciting job, but it was starting the company was running out of opportunities. So I was sort of at this point where I was starting to feel like Thorough's quietly desperate person because work was going nowhere and I couldn't run. And so I j I found out about this different kind of project and I jumped into it. And I spent a lot of time. It took a couple of years to really finish it, and um I

A Night Hike That Silenced Ego

Ken Posner

spent a lot of time out hiking and walking, not so much running, in the mountains. And on one of those hikes, it was at night, because in my rush to get all there was a large quantity of climbs that had to be done. I would sometimes go out after work, and so it was night, it was the summer, it was raining. I was coming down from a mountain where there was no view at the top at night in the rain. And I just I found a little overhang, a little rock ledge, and I took a seat underneath it to get out of the rain for a little bit, and I was just listening to the the raindrops pattering in the forest foliage, and I realized how quiet it was. And I realized part of the quiet was in my brain because I'm like everybody else, I've got the egotistical side of my personality, and it's like Lady Macbeth. It always wants me to be the best. Or what and it it hates anybody who you know disagrees with me or is different. It's really judgmental. And it's constantly chattering away. And it's like Lady Macbeth pushing me, you know, do something better than everybody else, even if you have to take lots of risks. Right? But since I was out in the mountains by myself at night and nobody was there, there was nothing for it to react to. And so it had gone quiet. And I suddenly realized that. And I was like, holy, holy cow, when the ego goes quiet, life becomes very still. And so I started to recognize how present the ego is in my life in other circumstances, and that gave me the ability to at least recognize it. I mean, it's very hard to control your ego, but once you recognize it's there, you can be like, hey, ego, okay, I hear you. I know you won't be the best, or you want me to be the best. Okay, I hear you. Now sit down and let's talk. Because like, if I'm running a race, my ego might be going, hey, just pass that guy in front of you, which I like to do. I love to do. I'm you know competitive, sort of. Um, but now I'm like, okay, but ego, if I run really hard, I could get injured. And then I might not even be able to finish the race. And how would you like that? And when I found about the ego, it's really not very smart. So when you ask it a question like that, it just gets this horrified look on its face. It doesn't know what to do. It's like, I don't know. So I'm like, thank you for your input. You just sit there and I'm gonna be in control and I'm gonna run hard, but not too hard.

Anita Mattu

And that's amazing, isn't it? Because it is quieting everything when you're in nature and you know, you're doing your walks and that so it's quiet in that ego coming from nothing. Yeah. It's hard to get to that place.

Ken Posner

And by the way, the other thing too, the ego is I think really important. I think in today's world we're more egotistic than people were back in the past. Now I'm just guessing, because I wasn't back in the past. But what the scientists say is that in hunter-gatherer societies, people lived in small groups. Call it like 50 people. And first of all, they had to work together to survive. Now, I'm sure they had rivalries and they got upset at each other, right? Because they were people just like more people. But the most you could be upset with would be 49 other people in that situation. Today, with social media and advertising and politics, there's 8 billion people screaming. And so I think that we get very defensive. And so now I look around me, I see so many people yelling and screaming and full of bitterness. And I'm like, wow. Um, and so I've it's taken a lot of work, but I now try really hard because I tend to react when I hear somebody say something I disagree with. I'm like, you're wrong. But I I try to stop. Now I say, okay, why are they so angry? Let me try to understand where they're coming from. Because they're just like me, and there's something that's bothering them and it's making them mad. And if I understand that, at least I know where they're coming from. I like a lot of this is I see friends on social media, and something like politics comes up, they they get really angry, and I'm like, wow, these are my friends. I didn't know they were so angry. I'm better off understanding that, and instead of arguing with them, let me see if I can understand. So, anyhow, I'm not perfect, but a lot of what I'm trying to do now stems from that evening in the mountains when I suddenly realized how loud the ego is, at least in my life, and was able to identify it and start to understand it a little bit better.

Anita Mattu

And you make a great point because yeah, we are always on screens a lot of the time these days. So today we all spend so much time behind screens. Why did you feel the need to push back into nature?

Ken Posner

Yeah, and and you know what's interesting, Anita, I I spent as much time behind the screens as anybody else. In my early 50s, it started to catch up to me, and I started to feel stale from too much time on the computer. Going into nature, and by the way, I was a runner, so I was doing ultra-marathons, long distance runs, and there was so much vibrancy. And it was hard, you know, you have to push yourself 30 miles, 50 miles, 100 miles, whatever it is, and you get you get tired, obviously, but there's so much vibrancy from doing that. The other thing about being out in nature, you know, you're you're not in control of the weather, the train, or any of that, but you're in control of yourself. And when you do a race or a run or a hike

Digital Burnout And Outdoor Confidence

Ken Posner

or whatever project you have, and you get to the end of it, it's very self-empowering. And so these were I was starting to see a contrast between my life outdoors and my life behind the screen. And in my early to mid-50s, I just felt this need for more intensity, more vibrancy, more energy, more self-empowerment than I was getting at work. Or with family and community and in other things as well. Um by the way, I want if if I can mention um a friend who who who's written a different book, and I want to make this point about self-empowerment, by the way, if I may. You do a run and you get to the end and you say, I did it. Yes. And maybe work's out of control, and maybe all my family members hate me, and my friends are all insane with politics, and I can't deal with them. But if nothing else, I got myself from start to finish. I managed myself. And if you can do that, that builds your confidence. The right way. You can't just tell yourself to be confident, you have to prove to yourself. And as you get better at managing yourself, it creates positivity throughout your life because now you at least have a better chance of dealing with friends or work or family or whatever, because you know you can manage yourself through difficult um environments. So I have a friend who did a different kind of project. It wasn't ultramarathons, it wasn't climbing mountains. She decided, and this was right around age 60, that she was going to go visit a reservoir and walk around the shore every day for a full year. And so there wasn't anything athletically special or difficult about going for a walk, but she made this commitment to herself that she was going to do it every single day for a year. And that was, and I think without me speaking for her, I think this was her chance to say, I need to empower myself to do something. And she loves nature, and so her book is full of these wonderful glowing descriptions of the water and the skies and the eagles and the other people she encounters. So these kinds of projects outdoors can be very self-empowering. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Anita Mattu

I can imagine that, definitely. Yes. Because here's the thing it's about getting back to nature, it's about getting back to our roots. And isn't that what it's all about? Becoming one with nature.

Ken Posner

Yeah, I think so. And and I know, Anita, with your clients, you're trying to help them on their journeys of transformation. Uh and my own personal view, when I use the word transcendence or spirituality, I tend to believe that whatever is spiritual about people would have been present in our ancestors living in nature a thousand or ten thousand years ago. Right? Because otherwise you'd have to believe spirituality is produced by technology. Right?

Anita Mattu

And I'm not even the case.

Ken Posner

I don't think so. I don't think so. So so going like you said earlier, going back to our roots, I think, is going to be fundamentally the way that we understand and empower ourselves. And and then with that energy and power, you go back into the digital world and you do what you need to do, but you do it with the energy and the strength and the self-discipline to produce the best possible outcomes.

Anita Mattu

Yeah, and that nicely goes into my next question. You describe stretching the rubber band away from the digital world. What does that look like for you?

Ken Posner

So the digital, you know, the digital world is, by the way, highly productive, but I need to uh and I think it's the same idea of going back to our roots. So it the obvious thing I do is barefoot running and and hiking. So that is completely in the other direction from the digital environment. But there are other things too. So I go to the climbing gym, and I'm not I'm sure you've heard of Alex Hunnold, who's solo free climbing up skyscrapers. I I'm a beginner, and I will always be a beginner because I'm just not very good. But on the climbing wall, that's a different way of moving naturally. And it's a different, it's back to full mind-body engagement, trying to figure out problems while your muscles are starting to get tired. Or if you're like me and you're scared of heights, you're looking down and saying, I don't feel comfortable here. That's another example. Uh, and when I say stretching the rubber band, typically on the other extreme from the digital environment is going to be full mind-body engagement, so physical and as natural as possible. By the way, some people love to go to the gym and do weights in a gym, right? Yeah. That's not a supernatural setting. Um, but lifting weights is moving the body, and nature starts with the body. So I think that's also a practice as well.

Anita Mattu

What is the grid challenge and why did it captivate your imagination?

Ken Posner

So the grid challenge is this peak bagging challenge that I wrote about in my book, Chasing the Grid. And in America, we have uh traditions for climbing mountains. And I really don't know what what you guys do in England. I know in Scotland you have Munroes, right, which are the smaller mountains. Um but in America, wherever there's a mountain range, there's typically an official list of high peaks. So in the Catskill Mountains, which is about two and a half hours north of New York City, there are 35 official high peaks. And again, these are not huge mountains. They're like Munroes, they're generally about a thousand meters tall. Now, in the Catskill Mountains, there's hundreds of other peaks, which are smaller, right? Um, but people have identified these 35 as being the official list. And if you climb those 35, you get to join a club and you get a certificate and a patch. So it's just it's a way to add some structure to otherwise

The Grid Challenge In The Catskills

Ken Posner

what would be just exploring the mountains. And it's socially meaningful because other people have climbed these 35 and gotten the patch and joined the club, and there's a community, and that creates the social meaning. So the grid is more like an advanced level of this, and it's a very simple formula. It just says, okay, climb those 35 high peaks, but not just once. You have to do them in each month of the year. And it doesn't have to be one year, it could be over a multi-year, and usually people do it over a multi-year time frame. So it becomes a big project. 35 peaks times 12 months is 420 separate climbs and it's an interesting project because it's a big project, but there's nothing that requires any particular athleticism. These are day hikes, some of them are off trail, so you have to use a compass and map or a GPS, but generally they're they're they're not difficult, it's just a big project. But what was so intriguing to me about this, because I've been hiking and running in the Catskills for years, and I just thought this was the coolest thing I'd ever heard of because I loved the mountains. And the and the idea is very simple. Because you might be saying, why would you do this? And the answer is to get to know the mountains really well. And you see each mountain in each month of the year, so you understand how it changes. And while you are learning the mountains really well, you're also learning about yourself. And so I mentioned earlier my experience discovering my ego, so to speak. So to me, it filled a huge vacuum. And I here I was 55 years old, and I just felt I needed more time in nature. And this was a great project, and it was special because only a few people had done it. And so it became a huge obsession for me. It became the most important project of my life for a two-year period. And then I moved on to other things. But I'll tell you, Anita, I still do multi-year projects. I think they're a great way to say, This is something I love doing. I'm going to make a commitment and try to make something big out of it just for the fun of it.

Anita Mattu

It's really interesting. Really interesting. What have endurance events taught you about the mind risk and resilience?

Ken Posner

So I think endurance event endurance is a human value. And by the way, I learned that in the Army way back when I served in the Army just for a short period of time. But that's when it dawned on me that endurance is a really important value. In the military, it's all about accomplishing the mission, despite risk and fear and discomfort and fatigue and pain. Outside of the military, we all have to. We have our missions to accomplish. And they can be hard, right? So the ability, by the way, the ability to keep after it, to keep on going, that's just part of life. And we've all seen the trees that are knocked down by lightning, but then a new a new branch starts growing. They never give up. So everything in life never gives up. It's just we're since we have brains and we talk about stuff and think about it, we we have to remind ourselves, don't give up. But it's just a core, it's just a core

Endurance Lessons For Real Life

Ken Posner

human skill. And when you do these kinds of events and you get to the end, like I was saying earlier, it's so self-empowering because you realize if I can do this, if I can do a five-kilometer race or a 50-kilometer race or whatever it is, then I can go back and deal with an angry spouse or a boss who's driving me crazy, or whatever the latest outrage is on social media. I've learned to just talk to myself the right way. I've learned to pace myself. I've learned to stay focused on the goal. I've learned to probably Solve along the way. I've learned to stick to m the disciplines, whether if it's running, it might be drinking and eating or stopping to tie your shoelaces, whatever. So those are just life skills, and you know, people have been running and doing other things to learn those skills forever.

Anita Mattu

And it comes back to just being.

Ken Posner

Well, I never use the word being. I like to use the word doing. But Anita, you're right. So we don't need to split hairs on word choice. Um you're right.

Anita Mattu

What would you say to anyone who wants to reconnect with nature or push their personal limits?

Ken Posner

So, you know, two answers. And um one answer is for somebody who hasn't had any exposure to nature. In America, we're fortunate we have uh done good work preserving forests and and state parks and national parks. So, you know, the first the first advice is just practical. Find a place you can get to. And it doesn't have to be big, it doesn't have to be a mountain. You just find a place you can get to and see what it means to you. And and everybody's different. Some people are like, no, I don't like bugs. That's the end of the discussion. All right, well, then you know, you'll have to find some other way. Um and then the second thing is uh as I mentioned, I'm a big believer in projects. And it could be as simple as, you know, we have in the in America this uh program couch to 5K. But it could be going for walks, like I was telling talking about my friend who uh decided to do that.

Anita Mattu

So

Simple Ways To Start A Project

Anita Mattu

I think when you have that in England too. Oh do you? Yes.

Ken Posner

Yeah, it doesn't have to be running, it could be walking, it could be hiking, it could be other things. But when you create a project, it's an opportunity to be mindful about the activity. So it's an opportunity to set goals and then to reflect on the goals. And as in as a writer, that's very important to me. But whether you write or you just post something on social media or you just take a note in your journal or whatever you might do, when you enter these projects, it's you're trying to change yourself. You're trying to improve yourself, you're trying to train yourself. And so ideally the projects will coalesce into a practice. And some people are so good they don't need to practice. But many of us benefit from just practicing. And that's and and and you cover ground over time and you learn and you have this foundation to your life. Um, if something goes wrong, you know, I've had the opportunity to spend a lot of time outdoors, and I can fall back on that if I need to spend more time at work or deal with you know some kind of problem.

Anita Mattu

If there was one key takeaway you would like every listener to walk away with today, what would that be?

Ken Posner

I think what I think I think about myself, and I I'm not sure every listener needs to come away saying, hey, uh take off your shoes and give barefoot a try. I would encourage everybody just to do it, but I Russell recognize that for some people it's not going to work. So what I would say for everybody that I think is is important is think about the people you hate. And then ask yourself, can you figure out where they're coming from? In America, we have Republicans and Democrats, and they hate each other. And by the way, that's the nature of democracy. You know, it's fighting. Don't let yourself get it, and it's fine. The great thing about democracy is we can all fight for our agendas and what's important to us. But I think there's a line that people cross when the media figures out something that bothers you and then they they poke you and they trigger you. And then you you go over from you know fighting from what you believe in to just being angry and bitter. And and so I I would like everybody to ask themselves that question. Are there places in my life where I cross the line into anger and hatred and bitterness? And if so, why am I demonizing people on the other side? Can I understand where they're coming from? And can I understand why I'm getting so upset here?

Anita Mattu

Absolutely love that. Thank you for sharing that.

Ken Posner

You're so welcome, Anita.

Anita Mattu

So, where can the listeners find you online, your book? What's your website, Ken?

Ken Posner

So, my website, it's gonna be easy to remember. It's www.bearfootken.com.

Anita Mattu

Perfect. And the links will be in the show notes. So listeners do please connect with Ken and find out if this is Barefoot is for you and get the book. It's a brilliant read. Um, I was very lucky to be gifted it by you. I've only just started it, but thank you so much.

Ken Posner

Oh, you're so welcome, Anita. And links to the book are on the website, and the book is called uh Chasing the Grid, and I'll flash it up here. Thank you, Anita, so much for for letting me share my story.

Anita Mattu

My pleasure. Ken, the biggest the million-dollar question how do you soothe your feet? How do you relax them after a hike or something? How do you repair them? Because we have a hard day at work or we're walking and you know, people use uh foot spars and things like that. And how do you manage to keep your feet nice?

Ken Posner

Yeah, um just a washcloth. Just

Finding Kent Online And Defining Courage

Ken Posner

clean off the dirt and ready to go again. The great thing about feet, they've been doing their job for a long time. Not only, you know, ancient people, but our animal ancestors, you know, uh had it go around on their feet. So I find they don't need any particular care besides just um uh you know being cleaned off and giving them a chance to recover after a lot of rocks and they'll be ready to go again the next day generally.

Anita Mattu

Thank you so much for sharing your incredible journey and insights today. I know this conversation will make a real difference for so many people and our listeners. And I truly appreciate you taking the time to be here. I really appreciate you and acknowledge you for that, Ken Postner.

Ken Posner

Thank you so much, Anita. I'm just delighted. Good luck to you and and your clients on their journeys of transformation. That's that's really exciting and that's great work.

Anita Mattu

Thank you so much. So we are all about create the courage to be fearless podcaster. What is your definition of courage?

Ken Posner

Believing courage. So as I was saying earlier when I was being difficult, and I look back on my life and I don't apply the word courageous to myself. Um because I was just doing the things that I wanted or needed to do. So I think I'm all about making things simpler and less dramatic. So I would say the key to courage is just do your job. And we've all got a job. We're here, as far as we know, only for one life. And our job is to make the world a little bit of a better place, a little bit of a better place for friends, family, the community, your country, the whole world, and for yourself. So, you know, just do your job, pay attention, do the work, make the best decisions you can. And sometimes there's going to be risk, but if you think through the risks, you'll make the best possible decision, and then you see what happens, and somebody might be watching you and they might say, Wow, that was courageous. Or they might say, Hey, that was bold. Or that didn't work out so well. We can't control all of that stuff. But if you make the best possible decisions, then you're gonna find that you're gonna earn respect from people for a variety of reasons. And and and you'll have done what you can do to make the world a better place. That's how I think about it.